189. Make Integrity Sexy Again: Rory Matthews on Masculinity, Shadow Work & Soul
189. Make Integrity Sexy Again: Rory Matthews on Masculinity, Shadow Work & Soul
If you've ever felt like traditional life coaching skips over the real stuff—like grief, discomfort, and the raw beauty of shadow work—this episode is for you.
In Episode 189 of the Embodied Writing Warrior podcast, Kayla welcomes coach Rory Matthews for a rich conversation on Jungian coaching, masculine leadership, and the power of staying present with emotional discomfort.
Rory shares his journey from musician to coach, what sets depth-based coaching apart from surface-level quick fixes, and how men can reclaim a grounded, embodied version of masculinity—one rooted in truth, self-awareness, and integrity.
They explore:
The difference between emotional processing and emotional avoidance
How masculine structure can serve feminine creativity
Why true safety starts with honesty about your own capacity
The deeper meaning of integrity (and how to make it sexy again)
Rory also offers practical tools for anyone ready to begin shadow work—including powerful journaling prompts and somatic awareness techniques.
Five Senses Activation:
🔥 Sound: Soulful, grounded, slow-burn conversation that sticks in your bones.
🪵 Touch: The gritty weight of truth, like warm earth between your fingers.
🫁 Smell: Pine trees in Mendocino and woodsmoke from a men's retreat fire.
🧠 Sight: A man speaking with clarity, stillness, and depth.
💧 Taste: The bittersweet honesty of “I don’t know how I feel,” transformed into power.
Whether you’re craving deeper conversations or navigating your own inner masculine healing, this episode is a quiet revolution.
→ Tune in, and prepare to feel more anchored in your truth.
Connect With Rory:
Transcript
Kayla: Rory Matthews, welcome to the Embodied Writing Warrior Podcast.
Rory: Thank you, Kayla. I'm happy to be here.
Kayla: I am happy to have you. So you are actually a coach in a program that. Inspired me so much and it's really informed some of the work I'm doing now, which is one reason I was so excited to have you on the show.
And now I'd just love for you to share a bit about who you are and the work you do in the world.
Rory: Oh, thank you, Kayla. That's, I'm so pleased to hear that that program, um, was so meaningful and impactful for you. That's what every facilitator hopes for, especially, when did that finish? Like a year ago,
Kayla: it was for, um, may of 2024, I wanna say.
Rory: When it finished. Yes. Yeah, so it's been a little over a year. So that's actually, I, this kind of dovetails into part of what I love most about being a coach, uh, working or getting to stay in touch with people a little bit longer term. I feel like I get to see more of the true change and transformation that happens when it's like the momentum has been gathered at the beginning, and then often we kind of like end a program and it's like, cool.
And there you go. So it's great to come back and, and hear that something that was really valuable for you even a year later. Awesome. Okay. So me and, uh, my story, what I do, um, yeah. I spent the first 32 years of my life in California being a musician mostly. And, um, around the time of the pandemic starting.
Got interested in initially looking at going back to school to get a master's degree and become a therapist. Yeah. And I talked to many therapists and I remember one of them being like, you better be really sure that you want to be a therapist if you're gonna go to school and do all the, like the, what do they call it?
The hours, like the, um. I kinda have to intern for a while essentially to get your full license. So, and then I kind of discovered coaching, which I had only thought about as like kind of a ego boost, like surface level thing. And, um, I knew I liked Carl Young's approach to psychology and therapy and growth.
Um, I had been to a couple of the. Um, I think the organization's called Mosaic. It's Michael Mead's, um, organization. He's a big guy, big name in like going back to like eighties men's work stuff. But he had been having a men's retreat in Mendocino, California, like a hundred men in the woods for six days, for like 35 years.
And I got to go to the last two before the pandemic and that was kind of how I knew I liked. Young 'cause Michael Mead would talk about him. And I was like, okay, there's some, there's like a level of soul that like this flavor of psychology and therapy and looking at the human mind and experience has felt more soulful than some of the clinical stuff.
So I Googled. Jungian life coaching training and found like one place online, uh, and did a training with them, which was great, and um, found. Carolyn Lovewell, nay, Elliot existential kink got into that side of shadow work, which is kind of like, works really well with the young stuff. It's all based on the youngian approach anyway.
Um, and from there, yeah, have explored a lot of different. Consciousness, mytho, poetic, uh, magical avenues, but all kind of based around this idea of self-growth and development, and especially like meaning and purpose. And then there's been a lot of, um, really potent experiences in men's groups throughout all that.
So now today I'm certified as a Jungian life coach, uh, as an existential kink life coach. I work with men and women and I'm kind of in the process right now of refining like, what exactly is the process of my coaching style? And you know, what, what do I have to say to people about what do I what I do?
Because it's a little different. And you had me as a coach, so like when I'm sitting down with someone and someone's bringing me something and we're working with it, it feels like it flows very easily. Then to sort of step away from that and be like, how do I talk to the world about this in a way that, especially in a way that makes sense and is easily digestible.
And today I even feel like a need to get away from some of the. Most common sort of spiritual consciousness lingo that we're oversaturated in. So it's a challenge to be like, okay, how do I talk about shadow work in a way that will make sense without, you know, falling into calling it shadow work? Because I think you and I are so used to being in a world of people who know what that is, that we forget that like.
That's not the same buzzword necessarily for everyone else who still needs it. So how do you tell them what that is and how it serves them in like a direct and simple way? You know?
Kayla: I think it's a challenge of translating something that is very deep and experiential. Mm-hmm. Into marketing.
Rory: Yes.
Kayla: Like, you know, you're an amazing coach and I know you're an amazing coach and.
You know, the work you do is powerful, but how do you explain to someone in a 62nd reel where they're using their lizard brain to scroll? Right. Right. And that's why I love these conversations. So we can actually talk more deeply about Yeah. The work you do. So can you share
Rory: Youngian
Kayla: life coaching, existential kink coaching?
Mm-hmm. Versus like a traditional life coach? Where do they deviate? Yeah, like maybe like the biggest places that you notice.
Rory: Great question. Um, what's your definition of a traditional life coach? Because I'm like, what even is that, is that
Kayla: so many branches? Okay. Like Brendan Burchard or Tony Robbins.
Rory: Okay.
Yeah. So that's a, that's a great question. Um, yeah, I, this comes back to, I think the reason I was skeptical about coaching. Five years ago is because I remember thinking like they don't really deal with the darkness, like the ugly stuff. You know? There's a lot of like positive thinking, which it can be super empowering and there's a place for that.
But yeah, I remember thinking like coaching doesn't go into the uncomfortable stuff. The way therapy does. Right? So when I found this, like Jungian life coach training, I was like, well they can't fucking do that without shadow work, right? So I was like, okay, this coaching like is using a modality that must deal with that if they're using this model of the psyche, right?
And same with existential kink, like that is primarily, um, shadow work. Right, so I found that both of those styles and training certifications just provided a lot of excellent tools and perspectives for doing shadow work as well as, you know, I think ultimately the
best coaches have found their own style within whatever frameworks they're using. Such that it doesn't feel like they're trying to plug you into a preexisting structure that they already have. Right? Like it feels like they're meeting you where you are with what they know or the perspectives they have.
Right? So I do feel that. That, that aspect of being tuned into the depth, and maybe we can talk more about the relationship between shadow and depth and even pain or discomfort, but like tuning into that depth and honoring that depth is clearly a really important piece for me, and I wouldn't want to do work with people without that.
Kayla: Mm-hmm. What I'm hearing is the limitation of those traditional life coaching spaces is there's a possibility for spiritual bypassing. Yeah. Ignoring all the power that is in those deeper places. Yep. And that can actually. At least in my case, in my own experience. 'cause I used to really struggle with this.
Do more harm than good. Yeah. And keep you from actually making the progress you could make if you did the deep work. So can you share more about what the depth is and how you can work with it?
Rory: Yeah, I mean that's one of those things where, again, coming back to what you said about, it's like an experi experiential thing, and then to try and put it into words, right?
Um.
There's certainly, I think the most basic beginner way I would describe it, which is I think still really important, profound, is just the ability to stay consciously present with discomfort like that creates depth. And I even, uh, I'm a, I've realized all the music I really love has some element of what I would consider soul in it, you know, and when we start to think about, when I think about what is that there's a connection between feeling pain or discomfort and depth and soul.
And there's certainly something in there around not just. Avoiding the pain while it's there, but really like having a relationship with your own inner pain or discomfort or suffering in such a way that deepens, which is I'm, as I'm using that term, I'm like, okay, well what do I mean by that when I'm saying that right now?
Right. But it like deepens you and I think it does come through with greater and greater degrees of. Inner quiet and peace and stillness. When I think about being with discomfort or being with pain, I'm often thinking about literally feeling it in my body, wherever it might be, and putting my awareness there, and then just breathing and just I'm breathing around.
That sensation, and it sounds simple, but it can be hard and uncomfortable. But there's something about that creating that spaciousness where that discomfort or pain can exist within your conscious awareness. That I do feel helps to slow us down, ground us. Simplify things, be more honest and all that stuff starts to feel like, I can even feel it in my body as I'm talking about it.
There's like a frequency of, it's a little heavier, it's more grounded, it's more solid, earthy, like that's what I think of as depth, right?
Kayla: Yes.
Rory: Yeah.
Kayla: I love that. And it reminds me of, I don't know who sent this, but it's a quote about the deeper your roots are, the higher your branches can go.
Rory: Hmm.
Kayla: And what I'm hearing from that is the more you're able to go into those uncomfortable places and go deeper, the more opportunity you have for that growth going forward.
Rory: Totally. Yeah. It's a, that's a good metaphor for it. And it is, uh, it can go, it's always about balance though, right? Because I definitely have. Encountered people who are much more comfortable processing their inner world than taking action based on what they've learned there. Right. Which you can argue to, like I think some degree of that processing is not necessarily depth oriented.
Some degree of that processing can be more of a like. Um, addiction or like entrancement with the drama or with some kind of identity or story, right. Which is different than like feeling the discomfort in your body and just breathing.
Kayla: That is such an interesting point to make and, mm-hmm. I'm laughing a little bit like on the inside 'cause I, if I'm not careful, have a tendency of being addicted to those dinner breakthroughs, but they're not doing anything with them.
Rory: Yeah.
Kayla: So I think that's where a coach, someone like you can really come in handy. So you help them have the breakthroughs. You give them that experiential like moment, and then you ask them, now what are you gonna go do with it? Because you're not just having a breakthrough for the sake of a breakthrough.
Right.
Rory: Yes. Yeah, yeah. Well said. Yeah. I, I definitely have also encountered those folks who will get really turned on by some like breakthrough idea, realization, synchronicity they had. And that's great. And I think just leaving that as it is, I'm like, wonderful. You know, and then sometimes I'm like, but so what are you gonna do with that?
Or like, so what
Kayla: I think that's something I'd love to touch on is because yeah, in the marketing emails for True North, you talked about how like women especially need that like masculine presence and that that coaching from like something that is a little more structured and accountable. Mm-hmm. Um, because I think the feminine energy by itself without that can just.
Spiral around itself emotionally. Mm-hmm. When, mm-hmm. When it's given a, a channel and like that masculine form, it can really take root. So can you speak a little bit to that?
Rory: Mm. To like the relationship between the masculine and feminine or, yeah. What specifically?
Kayla: Even just maybe the role of men in today's culture.
'cause you hear so much about reclaim feminine, reclaim the feminine, but. Yeah. There's so much power in the masculine, and I think sometimes we swing too much one way. Yeah. And forget that both are so important.
Rory: Yes. Yeah. Thank you. Yeah. So I'll just start off by saying, you know, um, there's, there's a difference between the masculine as sort of a concept, like an archetype, a more universal energy or, or form versus men.
Or a man. Same with feminine women. Right. So I can kind of talk a little bit about both, um, to that point though, about the pendulum swing. Yeah, it's really interesting. I think we've seen the big shift, right? With, uh, women's liberation in the sixties and seventies was very needed. And I think we even, like we could parse out.
The definitions of masculine and feminine, but I don't think I'm too off the mark to say that one aspect, one flavor of like feminine empowerment that came from that was actually more masculine. I'm using air quotes masculine women. Right? And I, I don't know if we talked about this in true North. I remember I've talked about this with people before, but it was like.
The difference between equality and sameness. I was really thinking about like it would be, it's different to treat another gender as equal to you than it is to be like, you're the same as me. So I do feel like we got some weird sameness that came out of that, and now we're living in a world where there's this interesting.
Mix and inner conflict, I think, for both women and men of their own inner amounts of styles of masculine and feminine energy. Right. So thinking, just, just narrowing it down to what you're talking about with the creativity and even some basics around these archetypes, the, the feminine being Yeah. The infinite and the.
Uh, void and the flow and the creativity and the like. Life giver, the thing that's always creating new things and changing and creating life. And in a way I'm gonna use this term, and I don't mean it, um, negatively at all. Just chaos, right? Like in, in the way that like, life is entropy. It's just that like force of growth.
And then you can think of the masculine as like the stillness and quiet and. Earthy groundedness. So if you think about, you know, I think a walled garden is one of the best metaphors here. You can have like a giant, crazy jungle and it can be beautiful. And as humans, we can take some space and create some kind of boundary around it, right?
And that's what the masculine can do in terms of your creativity. You can approach it with the same metaphor of what's the container. That wants to be created for this? Or what's the container that this needs and that could look like I'm gonna spend, I mean, it could be as disciplined as I'm gonna spend an hour a day writing.
And I've done accountability coaching with enough people. We could talk about this more to, to know how well or not that kind of thing works for various people. Like what level of structure. And you did a really great episode about this, actually, uh, about the different styles of structure, right? Yeah. I still think about that when I talk to clients about structure.
That was an awesome episode. Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, already, like it works differently for different people, but. Essentially the con, the idea of some kind of containment and boundaries, like a scheduled time or a place, and then the discipline to show up for that. That's like the masculine aspect, that's the masculine nature.
You know, if you have a stronger masculine nature, it'll probably be easier for you to show up in a disciplined way for something. Um, but then once you're there, it's that femin feminine nature of creativity or like what wants to come through being open. So in that way, the like way the masculine is serving the feminine is to create a space where there can be some kind of creative output or expression is a better term.
There can be some kind of creative expression with a bit more form and a bit more direction, and maybe in a way that can be continued because of that containment.
Kayla: Yes, absolutely. And I love that you touched on the idea that people will need different levels of structure because someone who I think everyone exists on like the spectrum of like, if you're like the biggest man's man, you're way over here.
And if you're like the most feminine women, you're over here. Most people are somewhere in the middle. Yes. And I think that, you know, someone. Like I feel like I'm a little bit more over here. I've got a lot of earth in my birth chart and I tend to have more of a masculine energy in a lot of cases. So I thrive on that structure and I need to be reminded.
Kayla, you actually need more spontaneity and more like flow.
Rory: Sure.
Kayla: What you talked about with women in the sameness versus equality. I read something that was so beautiful and the woman was like, I realized I hadn't actually embraced my feminine. Yeah. I just learned how to outman all the men. And that hit me so hard because I was like, that's what I've been doing basically my entire life.
And now it's okay, how do I actually get that feminine softness back in instead of just trying to do that? Um, yeah.
Rory: Yeah. Well, it's like the valuing of the actual feminine is different than women's equality. You know, and I, I, my wife, um, one time told me, she's like, you say you want my water, but then you complain about getting wet.
And I was like, that's a call out for like pretty much all men, you know? It's like the feminine energy includes, like you said, softness. And I just want to pause it, that it also includes passion. Right. It's like all of the emotional forces, whether that be like a really deep, soft love or like a fiery passion, you know, so when, when men can be like, when men are having a hard time if their partner, if their female partner is angry at them, in a way she's giving them her feminine energy.
They just don't like, they just don't like the getting wet in that situation, you know? So that's, maybe we can talk more about men's actual role, um, but that's tied into that. Yeah.
Kayla: Would love to hear more about that.
Rory: Okay, cool. Um, yeah, I mean there's kind of, I feel very clear on the man's role when it comes to being a husband and father because that's what I am.
Um, and I jumped into that just two years ago, getting married to my wife, Layla, who already had two boys who are now four. My stepsons are now 14 and six, and then we have our own 14 month old, my first biological kid. So I've been, I jumped into being a dad role for a lot of boys of varying ages and needs, you know, so.
There's that, and then there's kind of like this question of men's role in the culture and society in general. And I think they're tied together, um, because it does, it is about leadership, but it's about leadership in a very specific way. So I'll try to be, I'll try to start simple and then we can unpack it.
You can ask me questions. Um.
I think first what needs to happen is men really need to know themselves and what they really need, right? And again, this can kind of go similar with the masculine and feminine. Men can typically either be like a little bit uncertain of what they need or how they feel, and that's one kind of work.
Versus men who are maybe like more in touch. Expressing their feminine, emotional side, but maybe get kind of lost in the sauce around it. You know, it's like their inner experience kind of takes over everything, right? So.
For men to start looking at themselves and where they're at and what they need and taking responsibility for themselves, sets them up to then be able to be, whether it be with their children or their partner or colleagues or whoever sets them up to be able to show up in relationship with others in a way that's more calm and relaxed and grounded.
Ideally they can give the gift of their like grounded and self-assured attention to the people around them, men and women in a way that can help people open up more. Right. So I'm currently reading From The Core by John Weand. Have you read that?
Kayla: I have not read that one.
Rory: Yeah. It's a great follow up to way of the Superior Man, which David Data wrote in the.
Eighties or early nineties. Um, but he does a really good job. Uh, John Weinland in this book does a really good job of really getting into a picture of masculine leadership and again, leadership, whether it be in a romantic relationship or with your children or at work or with your community. I'm really on board with him with this vision of men who are able to be like, self aware and self-contained enough that they're not taking things personally and making everything about them and like kind of having a emotional tantrum all over the place, um, but are also still sensitive enough.
To know what they're feeling and also tune into what other people are feeling, whether it's one person or the collective. And then the greatest gift of that masculine leadership is to be able to, uh, intuit, to feel, to sense like what is needed for more openness and love and joy to flow. Within that system he's a part of, or that relationship or for the other person.
And to be able to meet that need and or set up a plan or back to structure and containment, set up a plan to begin to move towards that need
Kayla: that is. Powerful work to do because it again, I think comes back to a pendulum as well. Yeah. It's, you know, there's the self-containment and self-awareness. Yeah.
And then there's still that need for some emotional without going, yeah. Too far this way. So that's powerful work and yeah. Would you say that's most of the work you do with men these days?
Rory: Hmm. I'm reflecting on the men I've worked with most recently. Yeah, I mean, it, it's on that spectrum. I'm thinking of one man I've been working with where, um,
the, the, one of the biggest blocks is a pattern of avoidance, you know, and so that work is really like.
Him being able to have some practices where he can remember to come back and like drop into his body and begin to sense things more rather than going into a habitual state of like, well work, work, work, work, work. Now I'm overwhelmed and exhausted. And that bleeding into other areas of his life. Um. I've worked with other men who need a little bit more help taking action, like they're more comfortable in the self-reflective space.
And it's, uh, even that can become a little bypassing, right? Because it's really about that moment when the rubber hits the road and. Uh, your girlfriend is pointing out a truth about you that's deeply uncomfortable and confrontational to hear, and being able to be like, oh, okay, that hurts. And you know, e even the response, it's kind of like the response doesn't need to look a certain way.
I guess I'm just wanna put this in this example, like, masculine leadership and integrity in that situation could look like. That hurts and like I'm still here and open to you and in connection could also look like that hurts. And I'm recognizing that I don't have the capacity to be in connection right now.
So I am letting you know, I'm communicating that like. Wow, I, you know what? Need to step away for an hour, but I'll be back and I wanna talk to you about this. Right? So it doesn't mean you have to handle everything perfectly for sometimes I can get caught in that trap for myself of like, oh my God. Like, I can't believe I did that or acted like that.
That's not how I was supposed to do it. But it's like the, the best thing we can do is be honest with ourselves and then others. About what we are actually capable of and available for. So if a man is doing that, he's at least working some edge of his own masculine integrity.
Kayla: Can you share a little bit more about this idea of integrity?
Like you said, it might look different from person to person. I'm hearing it's an honesty about your capacity. Mm-hmm. And what else does integrity mean to you, and why is it so important?
Rory: Yeah, great question. Um, and a kind of a hard one to answer. I've been thinking about this one a lot because coming from the, like looking at it from the marketing perspective, I was thinking about that and I was like.
The way it came up for me was like, how could we make, make integrity sexy again? I'm like, how do we do that? You know? Um, but I remember I was really, this really struck me months ago. I was in my car listening to the news and like thinking about what I was hearing about Trump and Putin and, um. What's his name?
Just various authoritarian leaders all over the world. And I was like, yeah, why would anyone want, like, why should anyone care about integrity? Like what we're kind of seeing is this model of like greed and like take what you can get and exploit the system and exploit people. And I just remember thinking like.
There's something, there must be something in integrity and whatever integrity is for people that inspires people. Because when you think about leaders that I think we would say have integrity to a greater or lesser degree, there's something about it that next to other people gives some kind of meaning.
It can even be a turn on and like inspirational for people, right? So thinking about this, you know, this idea of integrity does come down to some like alignment with some kind of truth, you know? So on one level, if, if I'm telling you I'm gonna do something and then I don't. That's our, that's, that's one level of kind of being out of integrity.
Another level might be the truth in my system is like, I can't be with my kids anymore. I need to go take a walk and like I need a break so I can come back and then be a better, have more capacity. Right. So it would be out of integrity for me to. I mean there, there's some nuance there, but it would be out of integrity to miss the opportunity for that.
Right. And what that can lead to is then like, I'm not taking care of my own needs. I'm starting to resent my kids or my partner for what they need from me. Right? So at least in terms of, um. Being a husband and a father and attempting to bring some level of positive masculine leadership into my life and the life of my family, there's a necessary integrity in that starts with my self-awareness, you know, and whether that looks like kind of making some choices.
So that I am acting in a way that's in alignment with the values I want for my home and family. That's one way of being integrity or maybe making some choices to, to address the truth if I'm not in a place to act in accordance with those values.
Kayla: Hmm, definitely. So meeting yourself where you're at, and then acting accordingly one way or another.
But the biggest thing is just that alignment with your truth. And in order to have that, you need that initial self-awareness.
Rory: Yes. Yeah. Yeah.
Kayla: Hmm.
Rory: Yeah. And I think integrity, you know.
My feelings so far, and I feel like I'm not done spinning this around in my head, but I think integrity invites a feeling of safety and trust. And then once you're in a place of safety and trust, then there's a lot more that can become possible. Right. But I, I, as I've been contemplating it, I'm just thinking about, you know, with the example of a leader, if we feel a leader has integrity, it's because we feel that we can trust what they're telling us, or we have a sense of their values and we trust them to act in accordance with those values.
Mm-hmm. You know? And if we're feeling that way, it starts to feel more safe. There's more solidity. It's not like the political environment right now where one thing is said one day and then the complete opposite thing happens, and we're just like, okay, so can't rely on anything.
Kayla: Mm-hmm.
Rory: Right. Yeah.
Kayla: I think you touched on something beautiful, that safety is
Rory: mm-hmm.
Kayla: Such a core thing to have, whether it's safety within yourself, within a relationship, or
Rory: mm-hmm.
Kayla: Within a entire society. And I love that you're bringing that up and I think that's one of the core things that, whether it's a man in a relationship or just the masculine energy in general mm-hmm. Can really bring in that is so valuable.
Rory: Yeah. Yeah. I'm glad you said that, Kayla. Thank you. And I, it just makes me think about how like we're really acquainted as a culture with the idea of the like dangerous man, whether that be like physically violent and dangerous, all the way to just more unconscious like microaggression toxic masculinity.
Um. I was even, I was even playing a, so I was playing a soccer game a couple days ago, and I was just surprised by the other team because I remember one of them knocked down, one of my teammates got a foul call on him, whatever, fine. And this dude's teammate goes, well, at least you taught him a lesson. And I'm just like, whoa.
Like, I guess I'm naive sometimes because I'm a man who's like in that situation. You like help the other person up or whatever. I'm not thinking that it's a positive thing, but I'm like, okay, there it is. Like there's the sort of, I'm gonna use some sloppy language here, but I'm like, there's the sort of toxic bro culture.
Um, and anyway, I'm, I'm getting a little off track, but my point is we're very familiar with the, like, toxic man, the dangerous man. Like all these ways that like. The masculine could be expressed in a way that is like offensive or harmful. Right. And I do feel as a culture, there's so much, um, calling out of that, which has been necessary.
And there's very little. Examples even of like what a healthy, positive adult man looks like. You know, it, it almost feels like sometimes there's, you can either be kind of a, a neutered man or you can be like, uh, like super aggressive, bully, dominating, like. False machoism guy, you know, so that mi, there's that middle place where there's the sensitivity and the strength and you know, frankly, I just don't see that celebrated enough.
Mm-hmm. And I also don't, I think that most of the world doesn't fully realize. How much of a challenge it is for men to move our systems in that direction, especially today where it feels like men are a lot more isolated and when they are in groups, it's not with the same level of like connection and intention, you know?
So. That's something I think men, I'll wrap it up by saying I feel men really need coaching and support and community with other men, and it also feels like men are some of the hardest people as a demographic to get to engage in that kind of stuff. To look for that.
Kayla: I think you're absolutely right that society does tend to highlight the, the toxic version of masculinity.
Yeah. And yeah. Um, I'm gonna be honest, from like 19 to 20 something mm-hmm. I was like, all men are just terrible. And I had a really bad relationship with men, but that was because a, I was calling them in to mirror some of my own.
Rory: Mm-hmm.
Kayla: Shoes. And then I would, before I'd be like, oh, that one's an F boy.
That one's an F boy. And when I started to realize, hey, like your brain is filtering for these types of men, what if you stopped doing that? And then I realized, wow, there's actually a lot of really good men in my life when I look for them. And I think that's what. People would be really well versed to do in today's side.
Yes, you're still gonna have those guys over here, but there's also a lot of men who do really wanna do good. And like you said, getting them to work on that balance. Because I, there was a documentary, it was called like the Mask You Wear or something. It was like years ago. But it talked about like how hard it actually is to be a man.
Rory: Mm-hmm. And how
Kayla: hard it is to honor your sensitivity and your emotions without getting like. Strapped on for being emotional, right? Mm-hmm. Like it's, it's such a delicate balance. And because I think, and I'm not a man so I can't speak for that, but a lot of men don't wanna be humiliated or embarrassed.
Mm-hmm. So they're gonna swing to like too much emotional shutdown so they can avoid mm-hmm. The judgment. Do you see a lot of that happening with the men you work with?
Rory: Yeah. I see a lot of men that are afraid of their emotions. And either they're pretty conscious of the fact that they're afraid of their emotions or it comes up more as like, I don't know how I feel.
You know? And
yeah, I mean it, it is interesting to sit with a man and hear him share stuff that he's just not. Talking about in his everyday life with other people. And I always have to remind myself, because I spent years in men's groups and stuff where like we were there to do that. That like, that's a completely foreign world to a lot of men, you know?
Kayla: Yeah. Right. So I know we're getting to the top of the hour, so a couple more questions for you. Great. Someone wants to start doing this deeper work. They want to mm-hmm. Do shadow work, where's a good place for them to get started? Or do you have like one exercise you just love and recommend everyone do?
Uh,
Rory: yeah, sure. So, yeah, I mean, shadow work, there's. A term I use. Um, and I didn't think anything of it until the coach that I work with brought it up and pointed it out, which is like tracking, you know, I was like, oh, something I'm tracking right now, is that blah, blah, blah. And he thought that was, he loved that term.
And I was like, that's, I've just, that's just what I say, you know, I've just been saying that for years. But it got me thinking about this, like the term tracking. Related to hunting, right, is when you're like fi looking for an animal following its tracks. So to start with shadow work, uh, and I can get into more specific practice later, but just this idea of being curious and noticing tracking, right?
Like. Wow. I seem to get, I notice that I get really triggered and angry every time my, every time my stepson, I'm gonna use air quotes again. Disrespects me, right? I wonder what that's about. And that curiosity will lead to, I mean, it can help to have more language and tools being like, okay, like where do I not respect myself?
There are some good turnarounds, uh, the work of Byron Katie. The four questions that are from the work of Byron Katie are great for any kind of, if you're really stuck in like a mental story, and this is one layer of shadow work. Those four questions are really good for bringing around, bringing up some turnarounds.
So without getting into exactly what those are, I'll just say a turnaround from like my stepson doesn't respect me, is like, I don't respect me. Then I'm looking at, okay, what? What am I being shown here? So curiosity questions like, what am I being shown here? What's the lesson here? What's the opportunity here?
How am I like that? Like that's a humbling one, you know, to like look at someone who really pisses you off, which usually that's an indicator. There's some shadow being reflected to you as if you get really triggered. So there you go. There's like a. Notice when you get triggered and start to be curious about it.
Uh, the thing, the tool that I'll give that I think can be really helpful for this, um, just a couple simple questions. So the, the primary ones are, what do I think is happening? So coming back to this example of like, oh, my stepson is disrespecting me, right? And then the ex, the next question is, what, what is actually happening?
So then I might be like, okay, my stepson said I don't want to take the garbage out right now. And I interpreted his tone as sarcastic, you know? Then I'm really looking at it. I'm really taking ownership. I'm not even like he was sarcastic to me. I'm kind of like, and this comes from, you know, years of experience taking ownership for knowing what's mine.
I'm like, I felt it was disrespectful. That's more honest and accurate than he disrespected me. You know, so that these questions are like, what do I think is happening? Because that usually reveals the, like, drama we're projecting onto the situation and then what is actually happening can help us ground into and, and, and separate them a little bit.
And that's essentially shadow work, making the unconscious conscious. So it, it usually takes a little more than that to get to the point where you change the pattern, but you start with making it conscious, which comes from being curious and asking these questions.
Kayla: That's a powerful one because at the end of the day, our perspective is invented and often it is invented based on.
Whatever it might be. Wounds from childhood. Yeah. Other relationships we've had. But when you can try and step into that observer role and see where you're making any assumptions or telling stories that
Rory: Yes.
Kayla: Are more about you than about that situation, that is such powerful work to do.
Rory: Yeah. Yeah. That's great too.
Like I just wanna tag on that and say, notice where you take things personally. Right. And especially for men, there's, um, I can't remember if I shared this with you, Kayla. The masculine journey is from ego to truth. Hmm. And usually, yeah. Uh, when we are making it about ourselves. There can, there's definitely truths about ourselves that need to be acknowledged, but when we make it about ourselves, we can kind of take away the truth of what's happening around us and for other people.
So on, on that point, um, it's like really important to have some discernment between, it's like healthy compartmentalizing how much attention you give yourself. When you, when it's appropriate to put that down, whether it's resolved or not, and give some attention outwardly.
Kayla: Mm-hmm. Makes a lot of sense.
I've never heard that, uh, journey before, so thank you for sharing that.
Rory: Yeah.
Kayla: So it has been so good connecting with you. Thank you for coming on the show. And if people do wanna learn more about the work you do and potentially working with you, yeah. How can they do so?
Rory: So you can find me on Instagram, uh, Rory, C as in cat, Matthews.
That was my name in the middle initial. And on Instagram, I think I believe in my bio there's a link and you can get to my, uh, Calendly from there. But yeah, if any of your listeners are interested in coaching or know anyone who's interested in coaching, um, the best way to reach me or find out more about what I'm doing is my Instagram.
And you can also. Just book a discovery call with me. Uh, no charge. I'm happy to talk to you.
Kayla: Perfect. And I'll include links to all of that in the so, so thank you again for being here, Rory.
Rory: Thank you. Kayla, I had a great time.
Kayla: Pleasure. You too. You.
